EOI: Lock spacers for drifting! Post Aus-wide!

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archangel62
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Post by archangel62 »

If anyone has ideas or concerns I'm all ears. I'd rather realise I'm wrong than make them and find out the hard way.. but I'm pretty sure they'll work, at least with stock brakes. Nothing else seems to foul on mine, besides potential scrub from high offset wheels. Brakes come close but don't hit. Hell, even the bigger brakes on this car don't hit.

Also if anyone wants to give this a crack, I have money waiting.

Another idea - how hard would it be to modify/make up new hub carriers (I think that's the name) so that the tie rods mount closer to the axis, and thus turn more? Steering would be heavier, it'd be kinda like a quick rack with more steering lock... Would f*#k with ackermann a little but perhaps worth a thought, especially if it was like, a 5mm shift.

Here are some pics, I think the protrusion I'm pointing at in the last pic is what actually hits to limit lock:

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I think that whole lumpy bit's called the steering knuckle (I was never taught proper terminology) - I wonder if it could be lathed down up to the actual balljoint section. Whilst it's not great machining structural/suspension components, I'm sure it wouldn't just fall apart...
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Buggzy
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Post by Buggzy »

archangel62 wrote:I just had a look at the steering rack on my POS organ-donor Gem, it looks to me like the only thing hitting is at the end of the rack, I got some pics, but besides brake clearance etc I can't see why lock spacers wouldn't work.

Anyone able to post pics of what could potentially limit steering lock?

Wheel to inner guard clearance could be an issue with high offset or really wide wheels, but if it's a drift car just grab some low offset wheels and it should be good.
my gemini has the UPC brake upgrade kit and these spacers definatally wouldnt work, with the kit installed the calipers hit the control arms at like 90% lock, so to meet engineering requirments i had to extend the stock steering lock tabs on the control arm to limit the steering even more, to just before the calipers hit. No amount of spacers or engineering in the steering rack is going to make it steer tighter, because even stock there is bugger all room between the control arm and calipers.
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Gene FJ20DEBT
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Post by Gene FJ20DEBT »

these 2 points contact eachotehr... i cant see how modding the rack will override these 2 points hitting?? :?
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Stig
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Post by Stig »

As far as I can tell from reading all this, it only actually effects the inside wheel while turning?
The outside wheel would be able to turn further, but the inside wheel would be the same.
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modern bliss
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Post by modern bliss »

it wouldnt change your toe at all, thw wheels move together.
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Stig
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Post by Stig »

modern bliss wrote:it wouldnt change your toe at all, thw wheels move together.

But if you look, extending the steering rack, as these spacers would, would give you toe, as the pivot points are behind the steering rack?

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Red is the point of contact.

Green is the pivot point.

Yelling is where, if I understand rightly, the spacers will go.



So if you imagine the car with toe, this would mean the inside wheel on the turn, would be able to be pointed out further when it hits full lock.
modern bliss
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Post by modern bliss »

i don't think you quite get rack spacers, they dont extend the rack, the spacers extends the travel.
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Stig
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Post by Stig »

modern bliss wrote:i don't think you quite get rack spacers, they dont extend the rack, the spacers extends the travel.
Care to explain? Cos it seems most of us are grasping at straws and you know how it works.

EDIT:

Looks like these extend the rack to me?

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troyrotor
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Post by troyrotor »

My understanding it that it extends the rack in a way to extend the knuckle joints so they have a larger distance between them, this allows for more travel before the knuckles hit the end of the rack. You then adjust the rack ends to correct the wheel alignment.
So the toe out is now gone and the steering rack knuckles are wider than stock.

But on a gem it's not the rack that limits angle its the point gene pointed out. But I don't know if that's without rubber stoppers if gems have them I've never really looked
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Stig
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Post by Stig »

troyrotor wrote:My understanding it that it extends the rack in a way to extend the knuckle joints so they have a larger distance between them, this allows for more travel before the knuckles hit the end of the rack. You then adjust the rack ends to correct the wheel alignment.
So the toe out is now gone and the steering rack knuckles are wider than stock.

But on a gem it's not the rack that limits angle its the point gene pointed out. But I don't know if that's without rubber stoppers if gems have them I've never really looked

aaah, cheers for that mate.
Was trying to work it out in my head, and as I've never mucked around with that stuff, was kindof confusing.
modern bliss
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Post by modern bliss »

troyrotor wrote:My understanding it that it extends the rack in a way to extend the knuckle joints so they have a larger distance between them, this allows for more travel before the knuckles hit the end of the rack. You then adjust the rack ends to correct the wheel alignment.
So the toe out is now gone and the steering rack knuckles are wider than stock.

But on a gem it's not the rack that limits angle its the point gene pointed out. But I don't know if that's without rubber stoppers if gems have them I've never really looked
yeah thats a pretty good example
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troyrotor
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Post by troyrotor »

Mind you I've never heard of these before now and that's just how I picture them working. So I may be wrong.

If you wanted the spacers made it's not worth that much. All it is is a peice of solid alloy or steel turned down to size and threaded at each end, one being tapped for the rack to screw into. If you have access to a lathe it's an easy job. If nOt go to a yacht rigging shop and they will have the stuff to do it. I would supply my own tap and dies as they probably Only have stainless steel threads. $180 is way to much
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archangel62
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Post by archangel62 »

Gene you're dead freaking right, why are you always right when I don't want you to be :lol:

I randomly saw those stoppers while swapping brakes over on the weekend. In six years of owning Geminis, that's the first time I ever actually noticed that was there to limit lock, how bad's that...

The plan...
So I'm going to check on my track car and see how much clearance is available on the STANDARD brake callipers (I know aftermarket brakes won't have room, but standard might have a little, and drift cars don't need huge brakes, that's what huge entries are for). From there I'm going to try grinding down the stoppers marginally, bit by bit. I have digital verniers, so I'll measure diameter before and after if possible, then might lay down some weld on the far side to strengthen it.

IF I get more than say, halfway through the stopper without brakes or the rack hitting, I'll see if I can relocate the stop point on the LCA in a little closer to the swaybar bushes - I think by eyeball it might have 3-5mm or so.

If the rack hits at any point during all of this, I'll see about making a narrow shim rather than going the lock spacers at this point - because I can't see it needing massive extension before other points will limit it.

If I'm not satisfied with the extra lock permitted with standard brakes and control arms, I might look into modifying the control arm(s), and/or getting some fabricated from scratch - I know a fabricator although I doubt it'd be cheap.



Basically I *need* more steering lock to achieve my own goals with drifting, and I'll do whatever it takes to make it happen. If it really came to it, I'd even convert a whole filthy freaking MacPherson front end in there (eww..) just to get more lock. Whatever it takes. Eventually... heh
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ROTAHAVIK GEM
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Post by ROTAHAVIK GEM »

wont work on a gemini, you need a car that runs coilovers to work correctly, trust me i'm doing this with my ke70 drifter and have s13 coilover conversion and you can use different model vehicles that have longer tie rods which will give you extra lock to a certain limit, then it get serious and have to start thinking about front tubs to get ridiculous amounts of angle...

if ya go here you can possibly see how its done, no need for me to explain i already know lol

http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forum ... l-Articles
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Gene FJ20DEBT
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Post by Gene FJ20DEBT »

archangel62 wrote:Gene you're dead freaking right, why are you always right when I don't want you to be :lol:
it pains me to be right so much aswell. just ask the missus :lol:


maybe you could speak with one of the circuit or rally guys. they may have some tips.. i konw one guy on another forum who use to rally gem, ill ask him and get back to you if he has anything
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