EOI: Lock spacers for drifting! Post Aus-wide!

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ROTAHAVIK GEM
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Post by ROTAHAVIK GEM »

might add that your wheels can end up scrubbing on the inner wheel well and not mention your arch's, think about at full lock full noise and ya clip the rumble strip hard, your wheel arch's wont look pretty for long, check out some drift cars they pump there gaurds hardcore and still rub, mainly due to awesome fitment...:)
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Post by archangel62 »

Cheers Gene, sounds like a plan. Hopefully the rally boys will have some clue!
gemzilla1 wrote:wont work on a gemini, you need a car that runs coilovers to work correctly, trust me i'm doing this with my ke70 drifter and have s13 coilover conversion and you can use different model vehicles that have longer tie rods which will give you extra lock to a certain limit, then it get serious and have to start thinking about front tubs to get ridiculous amounts of angle...
What won't work on a Gemini? Point taken on what Gene said with the stoppers on the LCAs limiting lock against a stopper on the hub itself, but between that, the steering rack, brakes potentially hitting control arms and the risk of tyre scrub, SURELY more lock could be had! Even just a little! I know it's a lot of work, but if it's got to be done, it's got to be done. I had one of those "maybe I should just go buy a Silvia" epiphanies on Sunday, but f**k that, that's why we're all here. Where there's a will, and a s*#t ton of time (and possibly money) there's a way.

If I have to tub the f#*ker, or even just make triangular sectioned indents in a few select places, so be it. If I have to mod the control arms, grind them back and reinforce, or even have some made up, so be it. If I have to space the rack once I've ground back at the hub stopper, so be it! I want to give this my best shot, and if all of the above still won't make it happen, I hereby promise to sell the drift Gemini and go get a Silvia... :evil:


EDIT: Just read your last post, I know inner guard clearance will be an issue, I'm currently running fairly shite offset wheels, but planning on going lowwww offset which will give me some extra clearance. Not infinite, but a bit. I have some +35mm bolt on spacers if I run 114.3 PCD wheels, so that could help quite a bit. Imagine low offset K-banger wheels, PLUS 35mm!
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troyrotor
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Post by troyrotor »

I don't ever want to hear the s word come out of your mouth again

So have you removed the rubber stoppers yet? Just take them out and see what hits next then mod that. It would be easy to get new control arms made as minitrucks have them made all the time you could design them to have complete camber adjustment and weld the shocktowers and run coilovers insted . Cutting the inner guard and filling sections would work well and pumping the guards but running a practical ride height will be the key. I see so many drift cars with stretched tyres flared guards and the lip of the guard sits a mm off the rim but between the rim and tyre. Of coarse they probably have no suspension travel but it's just not practical.
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ROTAHAVIK GEM
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Post by ROTAHAVIK GEM »

wasnt having a dig was just stating that it wont work by just adding some lock spacers..

so adding them to group buys, i dont think anyone will buy because the fact theres alot of work to do, just for them to work..

by all means makita that s*#t up and post up piks, dont forget castor helps aswell so look into that aspect as well...
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archangel62
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Post by archangel62 »

Yeah no wuckas, Gemzilla I thought you meant the new idea wouldn't work (grind down stoppers etc) but you're right lock spacers alone won't work. Was expecting it to be straight forward hence the group buys thread.. but perhaps this is in the wrong place now :(

I'll have a tinker and see what I can do, if anyone has any ideas/suggestions/feedback keep it coming! And mods if you want to put this thread somewhere else that's cool!

Cheers
Eli
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ROTAHAVIK GEM
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Post by ROTAHAVIK GEM »

yeah the way to do it would be some R&D and show your results.

then maybe you could do a kit and show us what has to be done.

who knows you could end up making some coin for yourself and see an influx of gemini's at the drifts. lol

if its any help mcdonalds bro's do custom tubular control arms?
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archangel62
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Post by archangel62 »

Okay after much tampering, I've established: it can be done! And it shouldn't be too hard once we sort the rack out.

The lock stoppers on the LCAs don't QUITE limit your steering lock, depending on toe settings, but they're essentially a secondary measure. It seems the rack does indeed limit it in the conventional fashion, but if lock spacers were made, the stoppers on the LCAs would almost instantly hit. HOWEVER, it's easy fixed. It'd be really easy to grind back the stopper on the LCA without influencing ANYTHING else :D I don't have a diagram as yet - I have a billion photos but it's all a bit hard atm (working from laptop, main PC's Windoze died). Basically the LCA stopper's been reinforced in what's essentially a little L bracket to contact the lock stopper on the hub assembly. The structure seems to only be there for hitting at full lock, it doesn't look like it's there for rigidity of the arm or anything important.

The way it's constructed, you can easily and safely grind back the stopper on the LCA, and if desired, re-weld a plate that cuts across next to the swaybar link bush mounts for maximum extension. If you want a few more mm, you could grind down the stopper on the hub, but you'd want to reinforce it with weld behind it if you ground it more than a fraction...

Anyway crux of it is, by doing the above you can easily get 10-20mm more travel at the tie rod end in each direction. I won't speculate how much this equates to in degrees, but if you consider the tie rod ends are what, maybe 15cm in front of the balljoints, it's a decent increase. Standard brakes will take about 15mm extra travel at the tie rods before the big bolt holding the caliper hits the LCA. You could get real keen and grind down the bolt by a few mm, and/or modify the arm, but even with low offset things start to hit about here. Still a reasonable increase, though.

BUT...

For this to work you need two things.

-LOW LOW offset or wheel backwidth (put it this way, I just whacked on +35mm bolt-on spacers to some average 15x6.5" modern-ish wheels and they clear, the inner guards/etc, just..)

-Lock spacers!!! OR, getting the steering rack in a lathe to machine down the areas that would contact the rack ends? Anyone know if this would work?



SO, now, I want everyone's help in getting more travel from the rack. Suggestions on getting lock spacers made? Expressions of interest? Or is there a chance of machining the ends of the rack itself in 15mm or so on each side?
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Gene FJ20DEBT
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Post by Gene FJ20DEBT »

id be keen for some but still nervous they wont work on my gem with the hopper stoppers :?
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orange_gem
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Post by orange_gem »

hey man you got pictures of this. Very interested... So grind the stopper off you say.
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archangel62
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Post by archangel62 »

Yeah Gene I'm a bit hesitant as to your chances with Hoppers fitted. The easiest way to check is to turn to full lock, say, left, knock off the left tie rod at the hub, and see if you can turn the wheel further left. If you can, it shows your extra clearance on the rear side beyond what the rack can offer (standard brakes hit after maybe 15mm extra at the tie rod). You may wish to then slide the tie rod back in, full lock right, and on the same wheel, remove tie rod again and check how much extra space is available. Here the hub will limit not long after the rack does, but you can imagine what it would be like with the hub or the contact point on the LCA ground down - just look to see how much space everything has.

I have tons of pics of clearance, but none of lock spacers fitted as yet - I don't have any yet, but I may attempt to cut down some chunks of metal just as a dodgy test-fit in the meantime. Main problem is I'm flat out for the next fortnight or month or so, I have another Piazza on the way, need to finish mine and the POS organ donor Gem, then sell that and the KE20... :(

As for wheel clearance, mine's fine (just) with the +35mm bolt-on spacers, but if you're going low offset, be wary of the wheel's back spacing. Instead of filling that low offset with more back spacing with a wide wheel, it might have to be say, +5 offset and 7" wide... That's a vague shot in the dark, but yeah. I think LCA modifications are possible, but at this point I want a quick and easy setup that anyone can use, with decent wheels..
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Post by Buggzy »

Gene FJ20DEBT wrote:id be keen for some but still nervous they wont work on my gem with the hopper stoppers :?
yeah i agree its wont work with hop stppers or the upc setup. my calipers are about 5mm fromt he control arms now.. i had to put spacers in to limit steering travel so they didnt hit,.
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Gene FJ20DEBT
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Post by Gene FJ20DEBT »

you test fitted any of these yet dude?? took my gem to the skid pan on teh weekend and they definitely need some more lock of you wanna drift them decently. was running out of angle fairly quick
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Gene FJ20DEBT
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Post by Gene FJ20DEBT »

Gene FJ20DEBT wrote:you test fitted any of these yet dude?? took my gem to the skid pan on teh weekend and they definitely need some more lock of you wanna drift them decently. was running out of angle fairly quick
bump
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archangel62
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Post by archangel62 »

Don't know how I missed this thread, I think I updated another one instead. My bad.

The lock spacers work. Here's how:
They fit easily, and it takes ten minutes with a grinder to mod the LCAs or hubs to allow the extra lock. The lock spacers are available from Garage 7, I think they're about $20, give or take. www.garage7.com.au - best to call them, you might not find them on the website. The only important point is that you need LOWER OFFSET than most of the crummy mags floating around. Keep reading.

Here's a guide!

1. Remove the steering arm at the rack end. Generally done with a big shifter.

2. Slip a lock spacer onto the thread exposed from the steering rack.

3. Dab a little loctite on the thread (this has nothing to do with the lock spacers, it's just a good idea)

4. Re-fit the steering arm/rack end. NOTE - this is a good time to replace your worn old rack ends.

5. If you can be bothered, loosen the tie rod end and adjust it in by ~6mm, this is temporary. Tighten.

6. Repeat for the other side.

7. Turn your car to full lock in one direction. On the "outside" wheel, look at the Lower Control Arm, near the swaybar link. There is a flat section of metal, which is hit by a protruding tab on the hub. This is a secondary "lock stopper." Using a cut disc and/or angle grinder, remove perhaps 10mm of metal from the lower control arm, towards the swaybar link. You could cut off the tab from the hub instead, but I think modding the LCA is safer as it won't let the brake disc hit.

8. Turn the steering wheel further, until you hit your new full lock. Ensure the hub/LCA you just ground is now clearing, ideally only by a few millimetres.

9. Repeat on the other side.

10. Check that the "inside" wheel isn't hitting the lower control arm or firewall. You may need around 0 offset, or something with minimal backspacing, to facilitate this, but don't go too far the other way, or you'll hit the A-pillar. Mine are the equivalent of 15x6.5" ET0 with 215's, and get a little close with the A-pillar.

11. Get a wheel alignment. A good starting point would be -1deg camber (or max out stock adjustment), and a bit of toe out. Caster and ackermann won't be adjusted during a basic wheel alignment on a Gemini.

The end result is very noticeable and fun. Whilst you will still hit full lock if you get keen, you'll be pretty damn deep in by that point. Even with cruddy tyres on the back, I can get fairly close to 90 degs on a fast entry and still pull out. If you want to sus out the result, head to www.youtube.com/archangel062 - although some sessions have been better than others.
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Post by GEMWRC »

sorry Eli , just slightly confused on the rims offset required . Mine are ET +15 15x7s ??????????????
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