EFI/Electrical Gurus: TPS Issue

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Hachikansai77
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EFI/Electrical Gurus: TPS Issue

Post by Hachikansai77 »

Okay, so I've been working at this G200W on my Coupe for the last few days, and I finally got it running this morning!

However, before I can really go beyond just popping away out of the extractors, I need to calibrate the TPS.
The setup that I bought, that I have not touched since it was pulled from a running car, uses a Wolf 3D (Ver 4.57 I believe), with the hand controller.

On powering the thing up, with the loom untouched and already plugged into the TPS, takes a reading of 106% (WOT). Moving the throttle does nothing, so obviously needs calibration. I look into the manual and follow the steps to getting to the calibration menu.

Settings>Throttle Position>Then the options of Throttle Calibration, Adjust Closed Voltage, Adjust Open Voltage, Invert

Opening Calibration gives me three scrolled options: Table, MinMax, and SetMinMax. According to the manual, I should set this to SetMinMax, then actuate the throttle to WOT, back to closed, power off the ECU, then power back on. The TPS should be calibrated, and I should see 0% on the basic menu with the throttle closed, and a changing % value through it's actuation up to 106%. However, it still stays at 106% and doesn't change.

Now, I pulled out the multimeter and tested the two wires to the TPS (Power, Signal, as well as ground), and both are getting 5volts consistently. I was under the impression that the signal should be at 0volts when closed, and 5volts at WOT, so I'm guessing this is the issue. Disconnecting the plug changes nothing, still 5volts coming from the ECU.

Here's where things get confusing... I thought about the closed voltage on the controller. Going into that menu I was right; it was set exactly the same as open at 4.98 volts which is the maximum value. Setting it back to 0, and trying SetMinMax again resets the closed value back to 4.98. Setting both the open and closed to 0 does the same thing.
If I go into SetMinMax, and don't touch the throttle, nothing changes and they will stay at whatever value I set them at. As soon as the TPS changes, max values.

I'm really stumped, but I'm guess I should start considering this unit faulty perhaps? Doesn't make sense though as the whole lot came off a running car.

If anyone has any ideas feel free to throw them at me! I'm so close to getting this thing running for real, and ideally I'd like to be driving it next weekend at a private drift day I'm in.

For relevance, this is the TPS I am using: http://www.efihardware.com/products/386 ... witch-spec
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Hachikansai77
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Post by Hachikansai77 »

Also, not long after this ^^^ I tested resistance across the signal and power wires to the TPS with the plug disconnected and got nothing. So I'm going to assume the sensor is faulty.
However I'm still not sure why both are getting 5 volts constantly coming from the ECU...
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TURGEM
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Post by TURGEM »

I wouldnt be supreised if the TPS you currently have is a switch type TPS, not a resistor type...

3 ways an EFI system can figure out engine load. Throttle position, Manifold Vacumn. EBP= Exhaust Back pressure, the latter has comeout in the last decade id say...

You might find that your wolf is setup to run off the map sensor to reference for load on the engine instead of the TPS, in saying that its totally fine to run off the MAP sensor until you start adding bigger cams and the vacumn signal starts to become unsteady at idle. Then you need to either set up a stand alone idle map or get a variable resistor type TPS (Manual XF Ford) is just one out there... google ACA electronics I think it is.

If you have found yours to be the switch type... <--- this will probably be your issue, most likely find that your Wolf is setup for Map sensor not TPS as Load reference
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antus
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Post by antus »

Ive got one of these on the delco efi on my g200w. Slightly different shape but from research has the same pins/features/specs and its just a different brand. They are used on many aftermarket systems, and can be used on pretty much any system that uses an analog signal and a D shaped shaft.

Image

It is a resistance type TPS where black is gnd, red is +5v and green is signal.

I just disconnected mine at the connector and measured up for comparison:

Between Black + Green at 0% TPS: 400 Ohms
Between Black + Green at 100% TPS: 2500 Ohms
Between Red + Green at 0% TPS: 3630 Ohms
Between Red + Green at 100% TPS: 1340 Ohms

Or, with the connector plugged in and the ignition on measuring volts:

Between Black + Green at 0% TPS: 0.24 Volts
Between Black + Green at 100% TPS: 3.5 Volts
Between Red + Green at 0% TPS: 4.7 Volts
Between Red + Green at 100% TPS: 1.4 Volts

at 50% throttle values are about half way, its definitely analog.

There is room for different high and low readings between throttle extents on our cars, and from one batch of TPS to the next, but it should be something along those lines. If the 5v power is leaking straight to signal no matter what position and your seeing evidence in the resistance measurements of and internal short too, then unfortunately it is dead.

If anyone knows of a source of replacement TPS of this type thats less than $90 or an OEM application with something suitable from the wreckers please let us know!

If its a working switch type you should see the connection between one of the other wires and signal make and break as you hit wide open throttle.
Last edited by antus on Sun Dec 16, 2012 2:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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TURGEM
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Post by TURGEM »

XF throttle body that looks identical or VL Maunual
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Hachikansai77
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Post by Hachikansai77 »

I've swallowed my pride and ordered one express from EFI hardware, since time is a factor, and I can be sure it's the correct one for my application (even though there probably are OEM alternatives out there).

I'll go back and check for resistance again on a higher setting to be sure, but all signs point to a dead sensor. If it isn't that after all... I'm stumped.

The Wolf does use an internal MAP sensor built into the unit, which as far as I can tell is hooked up. The vacuum line runs straight from the plenum to the unit and is reading manifold pressure accurately. If the motor starts and runs properly with only that, I'll be happy, but somehow I feel the TPS still needs to be working to get the most out of it.

On the subject of engine load though... it does appear to be reading a consistent value of 97% even when only powered up on ignition. I take it that's not normal?...
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Post by antus »

are you sure its % and not kpa? atmospheric pressure is 100kpa and 97 is close enough. When it cranks it'll get vaccume and decrease, down to something like 10 or 20kpa for full load without boost when its running and the throttle is at 100% (i know yours is an NA setup, but for reference, boost is above 100kpa).

Have you verified your sensor ground line is at ground? If the sensor 5v line is at 5v, and ground is at 5v, then all signals will be at 5v and 5v from the map and tps could make them both read as 100%. Check sensor ground to chassis ground voltage and you should get < 0.3v.

turgem: the VL is nissan ECCS efi, and the manual is a switch type, and the auto is switch type on the normal connector and analog on the extra plug that hangs of the side. Its the same as most nissan systems, but the levels and mounting are different from the aftermarket one were talking about here. Thanks for the tip though, if it could be made to fit the auto item could probably be calibrated in and used via the extra connector that hangs of the side (and leave the one on the casing disconnected). Dont know about ford, I think they mainly use a double V shape actuation instead of D, but if it is D then its probably a win.
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Post by TURGEM »

Its definately a "D" shape its suits XF throttle body...

the first one I had was switch type, went to go tune it via tps, it would shut down as soon as I applied the setting... I dont know how new the wolf is, but I know the new stuff is now incorporating dual reference eg TPS/MAP, TPS/EBP, and so on, but usually they are set for limp home mode only.

XF throttle body check the TPS out on them they are identical and cheap as pooh on toast from a horse farm.
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Post by antus »

Have just been talking to a mate who knows wolf better than I, and he said that wolf can use MAP or TPS for load. So even though your MAP is hooked up, if its set up for TPS for load and TPS is broken and stuck at 100%, that would also stick your load at 100%, and replacing the TPS will fix both.
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Hachikansai77
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Post by Hachikansai77 »

On the same wavelength man, went through and changed the transient load sensor to the internal MAP, however it seems to have made little difference so far. It's still reading about 98% load on ignition, but less on cranking, as well as reading manifold kpa.
Fires better now with some fresh plugs, but can't get it to idle. Fuel pressure is around 2bar, timing seems to be in the ballpark.

I'm getting about 2-5% duty cycle when it's cranking with the throttle closed (which is the only way it'll fire at the moment). Also, every so often after cranking, the fuel pump relay will stay on and it seems like the dizzy/coil pulses every few seconds. If I key off and return it to ignition it returns to normal.
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Post by antus »

I'd change load sense back to how it was, and wait for the replacement tps and install that it arrives and try then. It probably doesnt have any map tables tuned in the ecu in which case you wont have any success trying to run it that way.
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Hachikansai77
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Post by Hachikansai77 »

True this, although it more than likely won't arrive in time :(
Got an email today explaining that they were out of stock, but should get a shipment in tomorrow and send it off the same day.

Just tried running it again, the closest yet, and whenever the duty cycle raised to about 4-5% it'd fire easily. Definitely seems like a lack of enrichment due to improper load sensing, just sucks that I really can't do more than this until I'm sure I have a working sensor.
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Post by antus »

You could build up that pc cable, read the tune off it, send it to me, and I could try and adapt my g200w VE table from my delco tune in to it. Then you'd have a tune backup which would be a good thing, and a map based tune is better than TPS (aka alpha-N) anyway. Though you mentioned you want to go ITBs in the future, and alpha-N is the only way to do that properly, so the wolf would suit such a setup.
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Post by antus »

Hachikansai77 wrote:Fuel pressure is around 2bar
also, you should adjust that up to 2.7 bar, its not garunteed that is the pressure you need, but thats the norm and a good place to start. You'll almost certainly run quite lean when the tps is good at a fuel pressure of 2bar.
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